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Alternatives to 7ply decks

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waxux
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:16 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 142 Location: Outer Banks NC
I have searched through the threads before, but I was just curious how many have experimented with alternative ways of building boards.
Over the years I have built several different types of decks including the traditional 7 ply, a baltic birch deck laminated with epoxy, and the longboards we make have a vertically laminated core of poplar and spruce. Of course Lib Tech does some very creative and cool work, but is that it? Does any one else have some layups that are different other than using fiberglass cloth or carbon fiber.

I'm working on some things of my own that fall into the alternative catagory and will incoorporate v-lam layers, but as of yet it's all on paper no prototypes. I thought there might be others who have thier own ideas along this line and we could open a discussion.

Also please check out my thread in the for sale section. I'm selling off inventory to fund the new prototypes and production for this fall.

Mike
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mkelty
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:37 pm Reply with quote
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Joined: 06 Oct 2006 Posts: 3644 Location: Springfield, OR
I myself have been hoping to see someone resurrect the old Uncle Wiggley style of deck construction, as they were light, but had great pop. When I dissected my broken Wiggley World, here is what I found:

It's a 6 layer stack with two glass layers. As opposed to the alternating grain layers at each turn, it is constructed as follows:

Cross-section:
Nose ----> Tail

1: -----> Grain
2: Fiberglass
3: -----> Grain
4: ^^^ Grain
5: ^^^ Grain
6: -----> Grain
7: Fiberglass
8: -----> Grain

Now, on the older decks that started to dry out, the outer layers start to pull away from the Fiberglass. According to John Schultes, and my own experience, when they do fail, they *EXPLODE* (hence UWS' use of Rivets on the nose of their decks).

Perhaps a Carbon Fiber edge wrap might eliminate the drying and subsequent pulling.

As far as the construction technique, and fiberglass choices, here is mine dissected:

Here is the bottom Layer, the glass, Layer 2, and then the alternating grain of layer 3:






Here is the top, the glass, Layer 5 and the alternating grain of Layer 4:







The Fiberglass does go end to end, so I wouldn't worry about trying to lay it in a specific area.

As to the Glass itself, it is a single layer, with ~21 rows/Inch from Nose to Tail, and ~24 rows/Inch from side to side:






I did some Fiberglass research, and it looks like the material may have been 1522-50, which is a Warp Biased, 24 Warp, 22 Fill Thread Count Fiberglass.

The Warp bias (More threads per inch along the length of the roll) adds stiffness and buckling resistance, and means the Fabric roll is laid across the Deck, from side to side, with the width of the roll being your nose to tail dimension.

So, up for resurrecting some Glass laminate decks?

Personally, I'd be interested in a dozen uncut 10" X 32" blanks that can accomodate up to a 16" max wheelbase, but 15 1/2" is really my sweet spot.

Can you hook me up? I've also promised Mr. Schultes a repro Wiggley World if I ever found a willing maker, so it is possible your wares could be tested by some Pro talent on the Mega Ramp...

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waxux
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:43 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 142 Location: Outer Banks NC
I can definately try. Right now I need to get some scratch together to do anything lol but we can talk....
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SketchMaster
Posted: Sun Sep 16, 2007 8:04 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 23 Location: Victoria, BC
I'm a fiberglasser by trade and the material used in the lamination of the deck above is 5oz polyester cloth(also called aircraft cloth). Fiberglass is classified by weight not thread count. By looking at the picks, the so called "blow ups" or failure of the cloth looks like its caused by the resin being "leached" from the material because of impropper preperation of the wood plys. Notice the dry look of the material. Fiberglass cannot be layed up on dry wood because the resin will just soak into it. you have to thin out the resin substanialy and coat the wood in it so its saturated and then let it "kick off". now its ready for the fiberglass. Now I don't know if you can do this for a skateboad because the wood may become to rigid to form propperly( i dont know because I've never made a deck). Another possible cause for the delam may be because the resin content in the fiberglass layers is going to be thicker than between the wood layers. Resin shrinks over time even after its initial cure. this can happen over a period of months or years depending on how presise the resin was catalized. The resin shrinks and pulls away from the wood on either side of the fiberglass causing it to release and delam. The resin doesnt shrink between the wood layers because there isnt enough left there to shrink. properly catalized resin will shrink about 3% but if you "kick it hot" this percentage increases substantialy.

I'm probably just talking out my ass but I hope I gave you some more to think about when incorperating fiberglass into a deck.

Any info on deck construction would be appreciated. I would like to try vacuum-bagging a couple and see how they turn out. I've been using vacuum-baggining in yacht building for the past 8 years and am very familiar with it so I want to see if I'm good enough to make a deck or 2.
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skateight
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:05 am Reply with quote
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006 Posts: 2857 Location: Earth
Very interesting, I've always been into hi-tech boards.
I rode Krypto foam, and Sims Phase III boards back in the day.
I've put kevlar or fiberglass on the outside of maple ply decks, that's the extent of my experience.
I'm dying to work with carbon fiber, and foam cores, just don't have the knoledge, and money to do it.
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yoyo
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:14 am Reply with quote
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 2228 Location: Germany
SketchMaster wrote:
I'm a fiberglasser by trade and the material used in the lamination of the deck above is 5oz polyester cloth(also called aircraft cloth). Fiberglass is classified by weight not thread count. By looking at the picks, the so called "blow ups" or failure of the cloth looks like its caused by the resin being "leached" from the material because of impropper preperation of the wood plys. Notice the dry look of the material. Fiberglass cannot be layed up on dry wood because the resin will just soak into it. you have to thin out the resin substanialy and coat the wood in it so its saturated and then let it "kick off". now its ready for the fiberglass. Now I don't know if you can do this for a skateboad because the wood may become to rigid to form propperly( i dont know because I've never made a deck). Another possible cause for the delam may be because the resin content in the fiberglass layers is going to be thicker than between the wood layers. Resin shrinks over time even after its initial cure. this can happen over a period of months or years depending on how presise the resin was catalized. The resin shrinks and pulls away from the wood on either side of the fiberglass causing it to release and delam. The resin doesnt shrink between the wood layers because there isnt enough left there to shrink. properly catalized resin will shrink about 3% but if you "kick it hot" this percentage increases substantialy.

I'm probably just talking out my ass but I hope I gave you some more to think about when incorperating fiberglass into a deck.

Any info on deck construction would be appreciated. I would like to try vacuum-bagging a couple and see how they turn out. I've been using vacuum-baggining in yacht building for the past 8 years and am very familiar with it so I want to see if I'm good enough to make a deck or 2.


Really interesting to know, you made some good points!
I know that back in the day Uncle Wiggley pressed some fiberglas/epoxy decks for Titus here in Germany and the biggest problem was that most of them delaminated pretty soon.

About vacuum bagging: Check out this site
http://www.roarockit.com/
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SketchMaster
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:57 am Reply with quote
Joined: 04 Sep 2007 Posts: 23 Location: Victoria, BC
Ya if they're delamming right away it sounds like the resin is leaching into the dry wood.

Thanx for posting that link might be worth checking out. I was looking more for info on resin types, directions to lay each veneer, etc. because i have access to the vacuum pumps and could make my own molds from free materials from work . I do appreciate the help though.
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skateight
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:49 pm Reply with quote
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Joined: 05 Sep 2006 Posts: 2857 Location: Earth
http://www.fibreglast.com/

Another site with carbon / kevlar / glass and supplies.
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yoyo
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 2:27 pm Reply with quote
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Joined: 27 Apr 2005 Posts: 2228 Location: Germany
Also a good place to ask and hang around for this topic
http://www.ncdsa.com/18/Home-Made-Skateboards.htm

Also check out
http://www.silverfishlongboarding.com/

But in general most constructions had already been done in the 70's and 80's. Yes, there are different and probably better resins to work with, but when it comes down, the limiting factor is always the cost$$$. If you want to do it for yourself, go ahead and experiment.
You will make better decks, but at what price.
I believe that the limiting factor is the wood, because it is organic and still 'lives', even when it's glued. Decks lose their pop etc.etc .


Dwindle went to China, where labor is cheap.
If all their 'new' constructions really make sense: I highly doubt it.
I just saw an ad of a Blind deck with a Taxalium core...I had to laugh.
Texalium is a fiberglas weave that is coated with really thin aluminum to make a great finish, but the aluminum does not make it any stronger. But maybe they have different stuff.....I haven't seen one cut in half yet.
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waxux
Posted: Mon Sep 17, 2007 8:08 pm Reply with quote
Joined: 16 Nov 2003 Posts: 142 Location: Outer Banks NC
I have seen the alum/glass cloth decks advertised I just got more of an impression of creative marketing over creative manufacturing. I haven't been planning to use fiberglass cloth of any kind in the new decks, but I do plan on using epoxy resin as an inner reinforcement.

I built my first long board decks using polyurethane glues and plan to research that option further. The cost would be roughly the same as resin (maybe a little less) but the prep or pickling of the veneer wouldn't be neccassary. I would like to see how flexable they remain on a long term basis. I have never had a polyurethane glue joint fail on any of my projects, the wood always gives out first. But is shrinkage a factor like epoxy or will it turn brittle over a period of time on a deck? These are things I hope to find out in the near future.

I plan on adding vacuum bagging to my set up in the future on some other boards too. It would also be good for lgluing the v-lam blocks of wood together with uniform, even pressure. Then I will shave the blocks into veneer for cores. I should have gotten a roarockit kit four years ago just for the mold.

mkelty, is your deck in any kind of shape to get a shape template? How about a mold shape? I am starting to think about this a little more so keep in touch. I would certainly want to get the shape and mold right as well as the layup.
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